All Triumphs are rubbish.

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DUESIE
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rolymo35 wrote:

  HEY !! TROLLS , Can we get back to discussing rubbish cars again ,PLEASE?xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxI managed to get my hands on one of the earliest Triumph TR8 -V8 to arrive in the USA ( see chassis number) Oh ! What a disaster that turned out to be, what ever happened to all the engineers back at the factory ? we recieved a half built ,collection of mistakes and compromises and had to proceed with completing  the R&D to make the car safe to drive. do you want to hear more ?

While I agree with PP re the TR7 not being a favourite, I think the tales of dealer and customer development would make a good read. As for where were the factory engineers? At BL? In '79? No such thing, any design and product development would have been by then the responsibility of some bods in marketing, and even then probably the last office junior to not see the writing on the wall. Do you have any idea of sales figures for the TR8 in the USA?

plastic penguin
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DUESIE wrote:

plastic penguin wrote:

Not unless there's some earth-shattering info. The TR7 & 8 were definitely my least favourite Triumph. Suffice to say, I'd rather have my toes stapled to the ceiling than own a TR7 or 8.

Strange fellow! While I agree the TR7 was an all time low for both Triumph, and car nuts in general, and I too would rather not have to drive one around, I have to say having one's toes stapled to the ceiling throws up a lot of other problems. Like how to change your socks, or even if eating a peanut butter sandwich may just be possible, a pint of beer would be very messy. No, I'll take the TR7 and hope nobody sees me in it.

Ah yeah, but don't drink, can't stand peanut sarnies... and penguins don't have toes.

Chris Martin
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One other comment (if I am allowed) on the tragedy that was BL in the seventies. Some of us are old enough to remember that the politics became totally devisive, at the time typical of British industry and the like of which led to Mrs Thatcher being elected P.M. and staying there throughout the eighties. I am talking unions. Now I know politics is one of those taboos on such forums so I will attempt to walk on eggshells here, but let us not forget how divided things became.

On the one side, after Len Lord and the old guard (George Harriman etc) were replaced by Lord Stokes and his team, there was nothing remaining of the old BMC management that had at least held it together in some form. Triumph had been brought in as part of the Leyland product line and no-one seemd to know what to do with having Rover/Jaguar/Triumph and Wolseley all pitching for a slice of the medium luxury saloon market.

Sure there was little investment for new models, tooling or modernisation etc, but what management would invest in a company lumbered with Red Robbo and his all too powerful thugs who even had the clout to stop anything they disagreed with management over. So we had two sides that would never agree, fighting over what was already a sinking ship.

By the time Michael Edwardes stepped in there was nothing much left to save anyway.

A truly shameful episode in British industrial history, but still a tragedy to lose names like Triumph in such shoddy circumstances.

Ok, I've had my say, I'll disappear again now.

Chris M.

 

plastic penguin
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Chris Martin wrote:

One other comment (if I am allowed) on the tragedy that was BL in the seventies. Some of us are old enough to remember that the politics became totally devisive, at the time typical of British industry and the like of which led to Mrs Thatcher being elected P.M. and staying there throughout the eighties. I am talking unions. Now I know politics is one of those taboos on such forums so I will attempt to walk on eggshells here, but let us not forget how divided things became.

On the one side, after Len Lord and the old guard (George Harriman etc) were replaced by Lord Stokes and his team, there was nothing remaining of the old BMC management that had at least held it together in some form. Triumph had been brought in as part of the Leyland product line and no-one seemd to know what to do with having Rover/Jaguar/Triumph and Wolseley all pitching for a slice of the medium luxury saloon market.

Sure there was little investment for new models, tooling or modernisation etc, but what management would invest in a company lumbered with Red Robbo and his all too powerful thugs who even had the clout to stop anything they disagreed with management over. So we had two sides that would never agree, fighting over what was already a sinking ship.

By the time Michael Edwardes stepped in there was nothing much left to save anyway.

A truly shameful episode in British industrial history, but still a tragedy to lose names like Triumph in such shoddy circumstances.

Ok, I've had my say, I'll disappear again now.

Chris M.

It's true that that particular period was a mess and BL can't take the blame because of Union policies back then. But what riles me as a Triumph fan (I mean a real "nut") is that during the 70s, given the Unions and economic situation, BL lacked anything resembling imagination: They produced a Dolomite 1300. Why? It was a Toledo with a elongated boot. Imagination isn't just about shed-loads of money: It means thinking outside the box rather than just rehashing existing models. I would love to have been a fly on the wall of their design and production meetings.

Chris Martin
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plastic penguin wrote:

It's true that that particular period was a mess and BL can't take the blame because of Union policies back then. But what riles me as a Triumph fan (I mean a real "nut") is that during the 70s, given the Unions and economic situation, BL lacked anything resembling imagination: They produced a Dolomite 1300. Why? It was a Toledo with a elongated boot. Imagination isn't just about shed-loads of money: It means thinking outside the box rather than just rehashing existing models. I would love to have been a fly on the wall of their design and production meetings.

Well yes. But my point was the management team under Stokes, seemed to not want 'imagination' but whatever was the cheapest short cut to a supposed new model. And if there ever was to be a ray of hope, the unions would see that was extinguished too.

Duesie made these points on page 2 regarding the confused Triumph range (before a certain poster threw a temper tantrum which took four more pages to defuse) and also the point was made that BL did not know how to manage the future of it's inherited brands.

I later worked with someone who had served his apprenticeship working in the pattern shop on the then new Allegro, and he proudly boasted of making patterns for the daring new 'Quartic' steering wheel, but as he later made clear, there was no leadership.

This has turned into a long and detailed debate, but one worthy of further investigation. The loss of a name like Triumph deserves to be correctly recorded for history (as does the fate of Rover and the rest), but I doubt we will get any former employees on here to give more detail.

Any journos care to take on the mission to record this historical era while there are still primary sources extant?

Chris M.

 

plastic penguin
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Chris Martin wrote:

plastic penguin wrote:

It's true that that particular period was a mess and BL can't take the blame because of Union policies back then. But what riles me as a Triumph fan (I mean a real "nut") is that during the 70s, given the Unions and economic situation, BL lacked anything resembling imagination: They produced a Dolomite 1300. Why? It was a Toledo with a elongated boot. Imagination isn't just about shed-loads of money: It means thinking outside the box rather than just rehashing existing models. I would love to have been a fly on the wall of their design and production meetings.

Well yes. But my point was the management team under Stokes, seemed to not want 'imagination' but whatever was the cheapest short cut to a supposed new model. And if there ever was to be a ray of hope, the unions would see that was extinguished too.

Duesie made these points on page 2 regarding the confused Triumph range (before a certain poster threw a temper tantrum which took four more pages to defuse) and also the point was made that BL did not know how to manage the future of it's inherited brands.

I later worked with someone who had served his apprenticeship working in the pattern shop on the then new Allegro, and he proudly boasted of making patterns for the daring new 'Quartic' steering wheel, but as he later made clear, there was no leadership.

This has turned into a long and detailed debate, but one worthy of further investigation. The loss of a name like Triumph deserves to be correctly recorded for history (as does the fate of Rover and the rest), but I doubt we will get any former employees on here to give more detail.

Any journos care to take on the mission to record this historical era while there are still primary sources extant?

Chris M.

While I'm a real Triumph fanboy, I will never try and blow sunshine up their exhaust pipes, because like any make or brand, they have produced some donkies.

Confused range is an understatement: They had the FWD 1300 which was a good family car. Then it was updated to the Toledo; then came Dolomite 1300, and in the middle of it all they produced a Triumph 1500. Which had a Spitfire engine but the bodywork was of a Dolly with a chrome grille.

Concur, like you say, the name needs to be preserved (or well documented), but the bottom line is BL deserved their downfall. Shame it took until 1982 before they tumbled - like a wart-laden labrador they should've been put out of their misery long before, circa 1975 IMHO.

Speedangel
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cscs
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Joined: 2011-05-31

But...But...But

Sounds lijke an Indian outboard motor!   However, given the recent TATA changes to their bits of the old BL, that may be appropriate.

Roget's Theasurus defines the antonyms for Triumph as "Sadness, Sorrow, Unhappiness".

Simply, anyone who feels like that about their classic, Triumph or otherwise, should

a.  not be here and

b. sell it!

20 years with my TR6 - and I'm not there (yet?).

 

 

 

Borismobile
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Joined: 2011-07-10

TR4 engines Morgans, wellas V2 JAP

DUESIE
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Joined: 2011-07-06

Borismobile wrote:

TR4 engines Morgans, wellas V2 JAP

Careful with the accusations regarding other people's aliases Gav. A quick right click on the photo and click properties and all is revealed.