Define a 'Classic'...?

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David Evans
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Sorry Mario: you are absolutely correct! As is the FBHVC, which uses the term 'historic vehicle' in the next update, rather than 'classic' – just me being a bit slap-dash!

Whatever we call them, it's always good to see a few others all year round when we're driving ours. I was driving around the M25 in the GSA a few weeks ago – without a camera, unfortunately – and got the thumbs-up from a couple in an immaculate Saab 99GL two-door about the same age. And that was definitely a classic...

All the best for now, David

DUESIE
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GBt wrote:

Yes Dave so sad Colin Mc Rae tragically was killed in a helicopter crash and his arch rival Richard Burns from a Brain Tumour . I recal as well as seeing it in the mad but also Vickie Henderson Butler from Channel 5s Fith Gear took part in a Suburu.

Fair comment Mario too, but when the government in the UK were hell bent on imposing what some were calling a 20th century form of Window tax, in the 18th century many big houses had windows boarded up, as a tax was levied on every window, this mirrored in a dafly drafteed out preposal issued in a white paper circa April Fool'd day 1995. The  parameters within supposedly laid down as of what constituted a a vehicle of historical and led to a date set in sand.

Quote:
If you think, clearly, it's an aimless subject then don't respond. I want to learn more and a response such as this doesn't come close to answering the question.
I dont and didnt when I had classic cars and bikes, so my view both then and now, for what its worth my tuppencehalfpenny's worth                                                                                                                                                                                                                                and exit right.

 The problem then was on the one hand it was estimated, in 1995, that between 150, and 250 million pounds, were being lost from the exchequer due to Vehicle Excise Duty, road tax evasions. The society of Vehicle Motor Manufacturers and traders were carping, that during the recessionary period of the early 90s under Major's government,the recession then was causing concerns, as they werent selling enough new vehicles, and demands that old pollution making ones, not catalytically controlled, were ruining the planet.

Anyway people personally importing cars manufactured in the UK could source them abroad,  even from 100 percent on tax countries like Denmark cheaper than buying from a UK dealership, so the Government were lobbied by The SMMT on those grounds..

so as hobbyists we regarded a fresh attack, on such fronts, as a foot in the door aproach, (if the robbing hoods cannot get through the windows theyll get in somehow).  We even heard Germany was perhaps considering only awarding their equivelent of UK MOTs, to matching number cars? Scurellous rumour or whatever, a lot of things were up in the air , including presumably Baroque Angeles in their lighter than air loafers, but rather than put a toe in the water to take the temperature the Powers that be initially tried to bulldoze a proposal for off road vehicle tax, back then.

The Department of Vehicle Licencing Centre/Swansea, now A for Agency, or C for cuts, reluctantly agreed to see 38 club delegates and another 20 over 2 days of the weekend of 23rd/4th, I think, in Wales

Not only did the British Historical federation start up but so did an affiliated Guild of American Vehicle Clubs, after a meeeting on 2nd April at Gaydon, the day after the government released in its white paper, iwas copted on to that commitee as editor.

 The incentive to do a round Robin away day 460 mile trip to Swansea, and attend such-in company with my then very best friend, voluntarily representing American Independants CC, I also was Editor for the National Guild of American Vehicle Clubs, but my best mate back then came along to and spoke on behalf of the Independants, as I did also after a request to be delegate for the English TBird club.

We went in my old ragerdy pollution making Mark 5 Cortina, It did smoke, and so did we then.

We were told at The DVLC HQ 2 types of off road tax were to be imposed with a third option. The Government were going to impose this, one way or another, come what may!! It was up to us to accept the most pallatable version. The most easily swallowed I guess, being  the short term tax disc, for lightwork projects, or the long term ones with a nominal charge for admin, which could then be reduced to the shorter term one at a later date. At this juncture the DVLC was about to become computorised, with of course the mandatory mass redundancy-so many experiened since, so maybe the Sword of Damocles, was held aloft for those in fear of their careers, to toe in and fall in line, or get the chop..

A cut off  year 1960 was muted, one where anything before would possibly be free and nominally in staged increased until up to date-but that too was deemed far too complicted. There were members there from the cycle light car club and even the steam afficianodos, so much hot air was released into the Ozome layer, from Welsh Wales those two days, I guess.

However he didnt get it far off base, a Morris Minor club rep caused some muffled amusement,after he suggested 1971 being the cut off year because it was the last year that Classic shaped car (was made, so another they broke the mould, when they made that, presumably a jellymould- its lovely replacement was a Classic Marina-which wouldnt be after ? Even Ital design couldnt save that one either.

After another 2 years of meetings discussions and also on board,various with clout in the old vehicle arenas, The Government was probably made to realise that less than 1 percent of the total UK motoring society, made up of old vehicle folk, and their pride's and joys,was hardly any threat to pollution, and in respect of raising vast amounts for charitable causes, not least to mention providing work in a thriving cottage industry of minor manufacturing offshoots, did a much aplauded U turn and granted Free tax! or tax exhemption for a Vehicle of Historic Interest, I think was the actual wording. On, as stated before a revolving basis. Tackling evasions and such was left to free S ingle O  ff  R oad N otification

ie .. on reaching its 25th year, a car was deemed Classic and therefore exhempt from VED. As well as not being restricted to just one vehicle per individual. further, for personally imported vehicles of less than a projected 100, or a given model, imported, (somehow Grey Imported of Nissan Skylines werent included in that quota debacle or slipped through the net),- Single Vehicle Approval tests for imported cars like say, some friends of mine, who imported a 6 month old Firebird were. Definately for kit cars, which didnt have enough original donor content parts, to keep a year related Plate, and had to also be type approvelled via S V A.and be awarded a Q registration plate.

So even so many kit cars have benefitted from a free tax, if with a pre 73 reg.

Unfortunately things could only get better (not)with the arrival of New Labour, or so the song went.

However Chancellor Brown, keen to fill the coffers in the War Chest Department, and even better at emptying them again both a s chancellor as well as PM-, slipped it steathily out, in the budget following Blair's landslide win, 1997, that was  the revolving bit of the free tax or exhemption scenario, hard fought for over 2 years by so many, actually set in stone pre 1973, if road tax was/is considered the defining issue.As everyone seems to be saying it is up to the individual-or even your insurance company to decide what really constitutes a Classic.

Thanls for the explanation GBt, all clear as mud now! Sorry folks, but I had to quote that gem in it's entirety before he edited it yet again. Anyway, if I can understand the basics of some of it, I had already covered the governemnt acting to boost new car sales at the expense of old ones in my 'Tell It To The Greenies' post elsewhere, and the governement U-turn on the rolling tax. exemption in a thread above.

DUESIE
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David Evans wrote:

Sorry Mario: you are absolutely correct! As is the FBHVC, which uses the term 'historic vehicle' in the next update, rather than 'classic' – just me being a bit slap-dash!

Whatever we call them, it's always good to see a few others all year round when we're driving ours. I was driving around the M25 in the GSA a few weeks ago – without a camera, unfortunately – and got the thumbs-up from a couple in an immaculate Saab 99GL two-door about the same age. And that was definitely a classic...

All the best for now, David

Ok, if we accept the definition of historic as thirty years old and original, but no nearer to what is 'classic'. Some would dispute the SAAB's inclusion too. Or if we do include anything slightly old or use classic as a loose term that anyone can apply to the most ordinary 'grey porridge' cars, how do we then identify the true classics. I mean surely there must be a difference in adjectives to label a Fiesta XR2 or a Dusenberg SSJ? You choose to include the SAAB 99GL which from memory had only an igntion switch on the floor and handbrake cables that crossed over (so as to confuse anyone trying to adjust them) to set it apart from a Marina, while at least your GSA continued the pioneering use of pressurised hydraulics that sets Citroen apart from the herd (even if the styling had not already done that). So we are no nearer to answering PP's initial question, but for now may I suggest we use at least two tiers of recognition; Classic with a capital C for REAL classics, and classic with a small c for anything that is of minor interest..

GBt
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First editon iof a real Classic poem

Snark =sarcasm/snarky-snide sarcasm-sarcasm the  lowest  form of wit.Thanls in return for your usual discurteous attitudes. Funny how you edited that one in the right name , what a Duisie Chris,look it up, you may even find it on your beloved Google..

DUESIE
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GBt wrote:

First editon iof a real Classic poem

Snark =sarcasm/snarky-snide sarcasm-sarcasm the  lowest  form of wit.Thanls in return for your usual discurteous attitudes. Funny how you edited that one in the right name , what a Duisie Chris,look it up, you may even find it on your beloved Google..

And more still. There is no stopping the lad when he is on a roll.

GBt
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Can be kept up indefinatetlyeven if I had to upgrade my internet package to accomodate all those copious copies of quotes you love to re- quote.

However an important one, so far overlooked.

Quote:
James Elliot,

On the other hand, don’t feed the trolls. Trolls is internetese for
those people who derive a rather pathetic kick from turning forums into
Fight Clubs. Unlike genuine posters who have had a bad day or a drink
too many, the trolls have no interest the subject and aren’t even
proper enthusiasts, so don’t encourage them or respond to them, simply
report them to a moderator and we’ll sort it out.

You can have loads of fun now trying to get yer man's ear  not to ignore you,  as at least I understand the wording of the etiquette as laid down, presuming a C&SC Mod' is also a mythical creature of fabulous non-form, Tell him or her about this world class Troll, it will be fun seeing what their reaction will be? 

DUESIE
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Ok, I'll ignore this stuff too. And I don't quite understand where RolyMo fits in to this, he has not posted on this thread, (no, hold on, forget that bit, he has since deleted that reference and gone somewhere else now) but typical of GBt, he will go off at a tangent and misquote others all over the place. Sorry about the diversion pp, but back to the meaning of classic for a minute. Reading through what has been said so far does highlight the different way people understand the term. You asked originally if there is a specific date; it seems not, at least not one that is generally agreed on. The example that some insurance companies may have a so-called 'classic' policy for a car over a certain age is just a marketing label to get you interested in their product with no basis in either industry standards or UK law. Then there is no concensus on how a car would qualify on terms of engineering, styling, history etc, so if there are no rules written down it will be up to the individual. I decided to check with the Collins Concise English Dictionary for the meaning of classic; 1 - of the highest class, esp of art and literature, (well that excludes GBt then) 2 - serving as a standard or model of it's kind, (sorry David Evans, but I dispute the SAAB's inclusion), 3 - adhering to an established set of principles in the arts or sciences, 4 - charcterised by simplicity, balance, regularity, and purity of form; classical. Other definitions include; continuously in fashion because of its simple style (Mini, VW Beetle etc), or lastly; a creation or work considered as definitive (so Rolls Royce Silver Ghost). In defence of Nuno, I don't think he was trying to say the question was a waste of time as much as because there is no fixed answer it is a discussion with no end.

DUESIE
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GBt wrote:

Can be kept up indefinatetlyeven if I had to upgrade my internet package to accomodate all those copious copies of quotes you love to re- quote.

However an important one, so far overlooked.

Quote:
James Elliot,

On the other hand, don’t feed the trolls. Trolls is internetese for
those people who derive a rather pathetic kick from turning forums into
Fight Clubs. Unlike genuine posters who have had a bad day or a drink
too many, the trolls have no interest the subject and aren’t even
proper enthusiasts, so don’t encourage them or respond to them, simply
report them to a moderator and we’ll sort it out.

You can have loads of fun now trying to get yer man's ear  not to ignore you,  as at least I understand the wording of the etiquette as laid down, presuming a C&SC Mod' is also a mythical creature of fabulous non-form, Tell him or her about this world class Troll, it will be fun seeing what their reaction will be? 

I think we all agree on the definition of Troll, but I don't think you really count as I am sure somewhere behind all the mad rants you are a real enthusiast who probably did have an interest when he first reached for the keyboard. Now how to define a Classic Troll; that would need another debate.

GBt
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.and maybe I dont actually regard you as a too worrysome a wanna b Cyber bully, as many who have left may have, but do make your mind up which character you actually want to trade under,perhaps everyone should post in their own names, anyway build a bridge and get over yourself/elves

 

 

plastic penguin
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Crikey, I've spent the evening with Mrs. P watching our daughter sing in the school choir at Dorking Halls, and I'm more confused than ever. Duesie did say I was opening a can of worms, and I was hoping they would wriggle in the same direction. Quite clearly not.

Think I'll go and iron my DUNCE hat. (Walks away shaking head).